O'REILLY Hey, Bill O'Reilly here. Welcome to We'll Do It Live. Of course, we're not doing it live. We're taping it. But I say we're doing it live because that is the name of the long form program that we're giving you tonight. Okay, you can sue me. I know, I’d lose. I would lose.
GRAHAM I love this show already.
O'REILLY Unbelievable guest because of Iran. And that is Senator Lindsey Graham has been in Congress on the Hill for more than 30 years. A lot of people don't know this, but the Senator was a JAG for the Air Force. And he knows more about Iran than anyone. And I'm saying that as someone who knows a lot about it myself. So this is not gonna be a boring conversation between two pinheads. We're gonna learn something here. And it's very important that the world know what's really going on. So Senator, thanks for taking the time.
GRAHAM Hey, thanks a bunch. I hear I'm your first politician?
O'REILLY Yeah, we do back and forth with the showbiz people.
GRAHAM If you crash and burn, I’m sorry.
O'REILLY Yeah, but this is extremely important. So, the word imminent is the problem here.
GRAHAM 100%.
O'REILLY It's the problem because Americans, they want to support anti-terror measures. I think most clear-thinking people understand Iran is a terror nation. If it's not around, it's better for the world to understand that. What they don't understand is did we have to do this now?
GRAHAM So, there's two things I've learned. I'm 70. Vietnam has cast a great shadow over American foreign policy for a long time. Nobody wants to get in a Vietnam. Iraq and Afghanistan have cast a long shadow over Mideast policy. And I can understand that. So, everything we do, are we going down that road again?
O'REILLY Right.
GRAHAM And the answer is no, but we're not going to sit on the sidelines and watch Iran get a nuclear weapon. Imminent. Let me tell you what the facts are, and you tell me if it was imminent. So Jared Kushner and Witkoff are charged by the president to go to the Iranians and sit down and see if you can do a deal over their nuclear program. Now, they've said for generations here, all we want is peaceful nuclear power. Countries enrich that have nuclear power, why should we be different? Why should we be second-class citizens? Why shouldn't we be allowed to enrich, like you do, for peaceful nuclear power? Well, the argument I would give back is that for about 20 years, you've been cheating. You have not tried to develop a peaceful nuclear program. Your enrichment program is well beyond what you need for peaceful purposes.
O'REILLY How do we know they've been cheating?
GRAHAM Because they said so, that comes in a minute. It's been pretty clear that IAEA, everybody has caught them having enrichment capability beyond what you need for commercial purposes. The most you need commercial purposes is 20% uranium. There is no commercial need for 60%. What does it take to make a weapon? 90. So 20 is the outside of commercial, 60 is threshold weapons, 90 is weapons. Now, the IAE, not me, has accused them.
O'REILLY This is the UN.
GRAHAM Yeah. The UN dudes, not Lindsey Graham, have found them cheating on three different occasions where they had secret enrichment facilities designed to go well beyond 20. So they've been called three times. And here's the question. Do you believe that if they had a nuclear weapon, they would use it? What do you say?
O'REILLY They'd do it, but they'd hand it off to somebody.
GRAHAM Okay, they would use it through a proxy.
O'REILLY Yep.
GRAHAM Why?
O'REILLY Because they don't wanna be obliterated.
GRAHAM No, but I would say, do you believe Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews?
O'REILLY Yes.
GRAHAM Well, most people didn't until it was too late. So the first thing you’ve gotta do in my business, who are you dealing with? I'm sitting across from you, I know what I'm dealing with. Do you believe the guy on the other side actually wants peaceful nuclear power? Or does he actually want a bomb, and if he wants one...
O'REILLY Well, I'm on record as saying the president did the right thing by launching this military action. And he did the thing last June by taking out their big nuke facility.
GRAHAM Why?
O'REILLY However, there is a legitimate debate going around, and you know it because of this guy who resigned.
GRAHAM Yeah, Joe Kent. We'll be glad to talk about that.
O'REILLY Right, who said it's not imminent.
GRAHAM Well, let's look at the facts, so let's get back to where we were. Trump says, go talk to the Iranians, and here's what he offered them. You can have a small enrichment program to save face, we don't want to humiliate you, but it can be designed to go beyond small, and we will guarantee you spent fuel supply forever for food.
O'REILLY And they turned it all down.
GRAHAM Why? Well, because they don't a nuclear power program, they want the capability to make a weapon because they're religious Nazis, and if you don't believe that, you're wrong. And those in the 30s who thought Hitler just was trying to get more German territory, trying to right Versailles, right wrongs, you're wrong. I don't know why people want to kill all the Jews, but Hitler did. I don't know why he believed the Aryan race had to be the master race, but he did. I don't know why these nut jobs in Iran want to purify Islam, but they do. I don't know why they want to kill all the Jews, but they say they do, and I think they would kill us. So that's where I'm at. Imminent.
O'REILLY So you don't know that they would have a nuclear weapon in three months. You say whenever they got...
GRAHAM They would use it.
O'REILLY They would use it.
But I'll say two weeks. Now, what makes it imminent? So let me tell you why Joe Kent doesn't know what he's talking about. So during the conversation about, will you take this once-in-a-lifetime deal to have all the peaceful nuclear power you want on very generous terms, they said no. And during the course of the conversation, they made a fatal mistake. They told Kushner and Witkoff, oh, by the way, we have 460 kilograms of uranium enriched to 60 percent. Now, why would they say that? There is no commercial purpose for 60%.
O'REILLY So why would they say it?
GRAHAM I'll tell you in a minute. The difference between 60 and 90 is two weeks, not three months. You can blend 60 to 90 literally in two weeks. I think they were trying to blackmail and intimidate Trump. They thought it was Obama and Biden. We're gonna give you a big secret here. We're this close to a nuclear weapon. What are you gonna do about it?
O'REILLY Why would they do that when he took out their big nukes?
GRAHAM I can't answer that question, but I can tell you what they did. I think this is what they do. They told us that we're this close to a nuclear weapon. If you don't negotiate on our terms, we're going to break out. And they said something even more disturbing. We're not going to give you diplomatically what you can't take militarily. So they went back to Trump. And I'll tell you what Obama and Biden would have done. Please don't go there.
O'REILLY No, we know. We'll get to them. But this is in the last Geneva meeting with Witkoff and Kushner, the Iranians, and they're on a record, so there's no two sides to the story, saying, look, we're not gonna give up our-
GRAHAM What you can't take.
O'REILLY Right. We're not going to give it up. They had to know, though, they being the mullahs in charge, that President Trump is not a weak man.
GRAHAM Well, they clearly didn't.
O'REILLY I don't know about that.
GRAHAM Well, I can tell you this, when they told us we're at 60, we can go to 90, what Trump did was midnight hammer. He blew the crap out of their enrichment capabilities so they couldn't go to 90. That's imminent. So to Joe Kent and anybody else watching, when the Iranians told us out of our own mouth, they had enough 60% uranium to make 10 bombs that they could get-.
O'REILLY Within two months.
GRAHAM Within two weeks, not two months.
O'REILLY Okay.
GRAHAM Say, 460 kilograms at 90 is 10 nuclear bombs.
O'REILLY So that's imminent?
GRAHAM To me, it's imminent.
O'REILLY Well, the head of counter-terrorism says it wasn't imminent, and he's got the same info you have.
GRAHAM No, he doesn't. He's lying.
O'REILLY Why? Why would he lie?
GRAHAM Well, why did he say the Jews drug us into it?
O'REILLY Because he doesn't like Israel having influence.
GRAHAM Yeah, well, no, he's saying, you know, if the Jews weren't around, we'd all be safe. This letter of resignation was full of misinformation and anti-Semitism.
O'REILLY So you think it's him, not liking the state of Israel or Jews themselves?
GRAHAM No, I can't explain why people say things like that. You need to talk to him. But when it comes to the eminent part, he was dead wrong. The truth of the matter is, they did have 460 kilograms at 60. They could go to 90 in literally two weeks, enough material to make 10 bombs. If that's not imminent, what would be? And number one, anybody out there, prove I'm wrong. Prove that I'm wrong. Prove that what I just said is not true.
O'REILLY Well, you have information that the folks don't have, but this guy, Kent, he was sidelined even before.
GRAHAM Yes. Because he opposed the operation.
O'REILLY And it looks like... Yeah, and it looks like a personal thing.
GRAHAM Sour grapes. He was one of the three people, maybe four, opposed going in.
O'REILLY JD Vance.
GRAHAM I don't know what JD did. I like JD, but I can say this. He's been consistent about Iran shouldn't have a nuclear weapon. You know, everybody says...
O'REILLY But he doesn't want...Come on, you know that he was a dissenting voice. You know that.
GRAHAM I don't know it, I wasn't there, but I could tell you this. His actions about the regime were different than mine. He didn't see it at the same threat level, I do, but I think he's been loyal to the president.
O'REILLY Don't doubt it, he's loyal.
GRAHAM And he's a good man, but I will say this. The threat that Iran possesses is just not a nuclear capability. They've been funding terrorism at an industrial scale.
O'REILLY 40 years, I wrote a book on it.
GRAHAM Okay, you wrote a book, you need to buy it. There are 221 Marines killed in Beirut by Hezbollah. There is no Hezbollah without Iran. Hamas couldn't exist one day. There's no October 7th without Iran, the Houthis, all funded by Iran. The third thing they do is they're trying to get a nuclear weapon, they fund terrorism, and they've just been basically the worst people on the planet, trying to disrupt the region for religious purposes.
O'REILLY Isn't it a good thing that you have a dissenter like the vice president in an administration?
GRAHAM Sure, sure.
O'REILLY I mean, I don't...but there is a wing in the Republican party, don't want any of this. They don't want any intervention overseas. You know the wing.
GRAHAM Yeah, it's called Chamberlain. The 1930s are being repeated. It's like World War II didn't exist.
O'REILLY Well, why is that wing in the Republican Party? Why do they have currency? Why does Rand Paul...
GRAHAM They've always been there. They've always been a part of the fabric of the Republican party.
O'REILLY Do you talk to Rand Paul?
GRAHAM Not lately, but at least he's consistent. Would you say he's honest?
O'REILLY Who? Rand Paul? I'd say he believes what he says.
GRAHAM He believes every word of what he says, and I think he's just wrong, not he's a bad person.
O'REILLY Yeah, okay, but he's not lying.
GRAHAM No, God no, he is the most truthful. There's two people on Capitol Hill that are the most truthful people I know. Bernie Sanders and Rand Paul.
O'REILLY They believe what they say.
GRAHAM Well, I believe what I say.
O'REILLY What about Vance, though? Because this is important. So you got President Trump, who's on your wavelength, who sees what you have just described to us, and I can't challenge that. And you did explain the imminent thing pretty well. I have to give you some credit there, Senator.
GRAHAM These are the facts.
O'REILLY All right. So now I know why it's, you know, two weeks is imminent.
GRAHAM Yes.
O'REILLY Now, you stand behind that 100 percent, you're not-.
GRAHAM 1,000 percent.
O'REILLY Okay, there's no such thing as 1,000. You know that, but we get the point. But Vance comes in, and he urges caution to President Trump because of the unintended consequences.
GRAHAM Before this information.
O'REILLY Before.
GRAHAM Yeah. Now, see, Trump-.
O'REILLY So you think Vance changed?
GRAHAM I think this changed everything. Now, Trump had already hit them before. It's not like-.
O'REILLY And Vance didn't say anything, but that was one shot.
GRAHAM But what I want you to get out of this interview, if anything, put yourself in the seat of the president. You say one thing when you campaign, then you get to be president, and they hand you a file. Hmm. What do you do? Can you imagine if President Trump did not act? They would have broken out. And if they had a nuclear...
O'REILLY And you're a thousand percent, they would have broken out.
GRAHAM Because they told us they would.
O'REILLY Okay, but there are unintended consequences of this action in the world.
GRAHAM Yes, there are.
O'REILLY So, South Carolina is not a wealthy state, it's regular folks, all right? Okay? They're paying a buck more a gallon.
GRAHAM The cost of the war is real.
O'REILLY Right. Do they understand?
GRAHAM You know what? I think I'm doing a pretty good job of telling them he had no choice. See, Israel has no choice, when somebody says I'd like to kill all the Jews, that brings up bad memories.
And on October 7th, there was a test run. Right, here's what we're going to do.
1,200 Jews, slaughtered in the most vicious way.
O'REILLY I wrote the book.
GRAHAM I've got to buy these books, buy the guy's books.
O'REILLY I just gave it to you, free.
GRAHAM Okay, good.
O'REILLY Put it on eBay and make some money from it.
GRAHAM I will, so I'm going to pay in case I have an ethics violation.
O'REILLY All right, we're. In South Carolina, we got the folks...
O'REILLY I'm talking to the people. They're world-weary. The gas prices are going up. If you're making, say, $15 an hour, you and your wife, couple, making $15, $20 an hour, and you got three kids, every dollar that goes into the gas tank is a dollar away from other things. I'm the first person in my family to ever go to college. Neither one of my parents finished high school. When I was 21, my mom died. When I was 22, my dad died. We owned a liquor store, a bar, and a pool room, and we grew up in the back. We were a happy family, but by no means wealthy. I know what it's like to be needing all the money you can because the bills keep coming in, no matter what. So when my mom died, she was 17 years younger than my dad. I thought, well, that shouldn't happen, but it did. Okay, my dad's 60-something, and I've got a 13-year-old sister. 15 months later, he's dead. And I got a 13-year-old sister. My life turned upside down. So how do you pay the bills? How's she going to college? What are you gonna do? I understand that. I understand the world can change, and it can be pulled out from you under a rug. Why am I asking people to be patient and to pay a price now so they don't have to pay later? Because I believe it. It's not that I'm indifferent to what 20 cents a gallon means.
O'REILLY So, you think you're gonna be successful with what you do?
GRAHAM Yes.
O'REILLY Okay, but part B of the question is...
GRAHAM If we're not, blame me, because I deserve blame. If we are not successful, you can blame me because nobody has advocated to take on this Iranian regime more forcefully than me.
O'REILLY Okay. You have a corporate media, which has lined up against Trump, okay, and it's personal.
GRAHAM They're more afraid of him being successful than the Ayatollah having another regime.
O'REILLY That's right.
GRAHAM I believe that.
O'REILLY So, you, Lindsey Graham, say, look, this is the reality of the situation. All Americans have to accept a little economic pain for the security that a destroyed Iran will bring. But then they turn on 80 percent of the media is telling them, no, this is B.S. It never should have happened.
GRAHAM It's really hard, Bill.
O'REILLY And there's no...there's no endgame. This and this. Every night, they hear the same thing.
GRAHAM And you have Joe Kent. But 80% of Republicans are sticking with Trump, I think, because they just trust him. Everything he's saying true. Every day gas prices go up, people are war-weary. They just remember the Mideast is just a bad place to be. I've got my work cut out for me, and I am not giving an inch. I'm trying to stick with President Trump. And here's what I believe. In about three or four weeks, no longer, we will have degraded the regime's capability to build missiles to hit us, to be the largest state sponsor of terrorism, and to go back in the nuclear weapons business for a very, very long time. What is the outcome I'm looking for? And this will surprise everybody. It's not who takes over Iran next. I'm trying to defang Iran, so there's no more October 7ths, to go and finish what I tried to start with Biden. Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel is the biggest-.
O'REILLY The Abraham Accords.
GRAHAM Plus, Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel is well beyond the Abraham Accords. The center of Islam is Saudi Arabia, the Holy Mosque in Mecca and Medina. It is the center of Islam. If the center of Islam would recognize the one and only Jewish state, Israel, it would effectively end the Arab-Israeli conflict that's been raging for a thousand plus years. During Biden's administration, Joe Biden, I went to Saudi and Israel eight times with Tony Blinken, Brett McGurk, Jake Sullivan, to try to build on the Abraham Accords to get Saudi to come into the Abraham Accords and recognize Israel. October 7th was designed by Iran to stop that.
O'REILLY Stop it, very good.
GRAHAM Their worst nightmare is for the Arabs and the Jews to make peace, leaving them behind.
O'REILLY Now, Netanyahu, though, he's not an easy guy to deal with.
GRAHAM Tell me about it. So let's play it out. So I'll tell you what I'm up to. I'm trying to get Iran weakened so we can get back to the peace table and finish the biggest deal on the planet, Saudi-Israel. Now, what does Saudi want, Bill, to recognize Israel? I've been there more times than I can count now. Three things. A defense agreement with the United States, like we have with Japan and Australia. How many of you out there are ready to go to war with Saudi Arabia to have a defense agreement?
O'REILLY No one.
GRAHAM Well, it's a tough sell, and I'm going to try to sell you why it's in your interest. If Trump says, I'm for it, most Republicans would be for the treaty. And Saudi Arabia's changed. It's real. Now, how do you get Democrats to vote for a defense agreement to go to war with Saudi Arabia that benefits MBS, Trump, and Bibi? There's only one way you do that. The second thing that MBS wants, Saudi, is a pathway to a Palestinian state, irreversible with a capital in East Jerusalem. I don't know if that's possible after October the 7th, but he wants a dignified life and solution to the Palestinian problem.
O'REILLY Well, the investment in Gaza would be a start to that.
GRAHAM This is, I'm hopeful, but why does the MBS insist on that? The Arab world is on fire. They may not watch your show, but Al Jazeera is...
O'REILLY No, they do. They know.
GRAHAM They know, right? So for him to recognize Israel after October 7th, he literally could get killed.
O'REILLY He's got to get something he can show his people in the Wahhabists. The Wahhabists are...
GRAHAM Yeah, but just the average person, some very highly intelligent young woman is not really sold on Israel after this war. I've been to Saudi enough to know that the elite there have turned. So what does he have to do? He's got to prove to the Arab world that for recognizing Israel, I got something, everybody-
O'REILLY I've got something. Right.
GRAHAM The Palestinians. Everybody's been pleading for the Palestinian cause on the left. Well, you may have a chance to get it. So what will I say? I will go to Bibi and say, listen, if we pull this off, you destroy Iran with our help. You wipe Hamas off the face of the earth. Hezbollah has no money because Iran has changed. They're weakened. I would ask you to entertain helping MBS on the Palestinian solution. Push your own base. Find a solution so we can close this deal. That'd be hard for him, but it's going to be hard for MBS. Now, what role do I play? I'm going to support this treaty. I'm gonna try to get Republicans to support it. But I'll go to the Democrats and say, listen, I tried to help Biden. I'm asking no more of you than I ask of myself. I was willing to do this big deal on Biden's watch, and October 7th stopped it. You don't know this, but I'm about to tell you. At the end of October 2023, we were going to announce a framework. That's how close we were. October 7th came in the nick of time. There'll come a time where Iran is defanged. Not completely solved.
O'REILLY Well, you say it's going to be in about six weeks.
GRAHAM Three to four weeks.
O'REILLY Three to 4 weeks. Okay.
GRAHAM And what am I looking for? When Saudi Arabia feels that Iran is weakened, that they can go back to the negotiating table, that's what this war is about for me.
O'REILLY Let's pivot to Europe. So you would think, after all of the terror incidents that France has had...
GRAHAM If you're watching this show, you've learned more than 99% of the people about what we're up to.
O'REILLY Well, that's what I do.
GRAHAM What we're up to.
O'REILLY With the exception of Italy, all of the other big NATO countries are basically saying, look, you do it. It's not that they're opposed to downgrading Iran, they're not. They want us to do everything.
GRAHAM Well, it's a little deeper now. It's not that, you know, be our guest. We hope you're successful. Call us and let us know how...
O'REILLY No, it's not our war. Well, Starmer said today, once you get it under control, then we'll put some ships in.
GRAHAM Yeah.
O'REILLY Well, thanks, Kier.
GRAHAM So, look, you're dead right. They don't want their fingerprints on it because a lot of them have very diverse populations...
O'REILLY Right.
GRAHAM That are not into anything called Israel.
O'REILLY So they're cowards.
GRAHAM I think they're just politicians running scared.
O'REILLY That's cowards.
GRAHAM I would think so. So, let me just say this. If you're helping Trump or Bibi in Europe, you're probably not gonna...
O'REILLY But the folks don't know that. They're not doing that.
GRAHAM Well, but I'm saying that animosity on the streets of Europe toward Israel and the United States is pretty high right now. So what happened that really has made things worse? Trump is asking for some help to keep the straits flowing. We get 1% of our oil from the Strait of Hormuz. Europe gets most of it. Right now, every European politician has not only said no, they've publicly said no. France said today, we'll never get involved in this Iranian war. This was not our war. An Ayatollah with a nuclear weapon that would terrorize the region and the world, and use it, is your problem.
O'REILLY Of course.
GRAHAM Hitler became everybody's problem.
O'REILLY So why did Macron say it?
GRAHAM Because he's popular, and I don't know other than that, that he's mad that we didn't tell him. If we told the Europeans we're going to attack Iran, it'd have leaked out in five seconds. They can be upset. I get that. But what they can't do is publicly undercut the president because Iran looks at this rift, and they may try to hang on. And here's what's odd. Helping keep the straits open helps them, Europe, more than it helps us. And here's how it's going to play out. If they keep screwing around with Trump, watch out for Ukraine. Because he doesn't think that's our war. And I think it's important that we stop Putin.
O'REILLY Well, Putin's the big winner in all of this, you know that. But I don't want to get to him until a minute.
GRAHAM Okay, Europe.
O'REILLY Yeah.
GRAHAM Europe is an unreliable ally.
O'REILLY So you're, you're gonna. I'm going to morph you into Donald Trump right now. Watch this. The mist comes here and now. It's not Senator Graham, it's President Trump.
GRAHAM I'll have more hair.
O'REILLY Here is the question. Was it smart to say you were going to invade Greenland, that NATO and the EU are a bunch of wusses? Okay, was it smart to go over there and poke the European bear, because they don't like you now?
GRAHAM That might have been a bridge too far. You know, I'm a pretty forward-leaning guy, but Greenland? But you know, Trump is Trump. And let me tell you the benefit of being Trump. People are afraid of him. Was anybody afraid of Obama and Biden? No.
O'REILLY I was afraid of Obama.
GRAHAM For a different reason. If you're a foreign power, you wouldn't. You know, if Trump could send a rowboat and everybody said, what can we do to help you? You know, Biden can send an aircraft carrier, and everybody yawns. Part of being president is being in people's heads. Trump's in everybody's head, including mine.
O'REILLY I know, but it worked against him here.
GRAHAM Sometimes it does. But the greater good is better. Venezuela, we're better off without Maduro.
O'REILLY 100%. And they're still dancing for the baseball game.
GRAHAM You want to make some news? I would love Venezuela to be a state.
O'REILLY No, you don't want Venezuela to be a state.
GRAHAM Well, that's your opinion.
O'REILLY No.
GRAHAM I would. So anyway, Trump said it, they signed with me. The point is, Venezuela used to be the center of narco-terrorism. It's no longer. Maduro's in jail. The Venezuelan people are free, and they're playing baseball.
O'REILLY It worked.
GRAHAM But you know, he got like five seconds of credit. If a Democrat had done that, they'd stop the entire world and celebrate it. If a Democrat acted the way Trump did, they would tell the story about the 460 kilograms morning, noon, and night. You can't find this story in the mainstream media because they don't want you to know it. So, Venezuela was a ballsy thing to do, and it worked.
O'REILLY Right.
GRAHAM Okay. If you've got family in Cuba, they're going to be liberated soon. That's a great thing. And we're doing it without any troops on the ground.
O'REILLY Right.
GRAHAM We had a snatch operation, but no occupation, no invasion. Donald Trump, in his own way, is one of the most brilliant people I've ever met. In his own way. He can do things nobody else will do. And he's gotten these countries sort of in a spot. Well, Venezuela is liberated, Cuba's about to be liberated without an invasion. Now, Iran, can we collapse this regime enough to lead to Saudi Israel? If we can, it'd be the biggest change in 2,000 years.
O'REILLY But you think we can?
GRAHAM Yes, I'm highly confident we can, but we've got to stick with it. Back to Europe. I'm a NATO guy. Now, John McCain was one of my dearest friends. I believe in alliances, but I was stunned at how brazen they were, sticking it to Trump on the Hormuz, not thinking it through on Ukraine. My phone lit up all day today from European leaders because of my tweet yesterday. I said, you know, I've been pretty strong for alliances, but maybe I miscalculated. Maybe we don't have reliable friends. If you're not willing to help now to help yourself, should we be spending all this money? And coming from me is different than coming from Trump. So, I'm Trump. What I would tell my European allies, our European allies, that you're more unreliable than I thought, I'm having to do things without you because you won't help me, and you know what? I'm getting comfortable doing it.
O'REILLY So, you leave them hanging on Ukraine, but that helps Putin, one of the big villains in the world.
GRAHAM I think so, but the truth of the matter is, Ukraine war needs to end honorably and justly. We don't need to reward Putin's invasion, but we've got to realize we're not going to get every Russian out. I don't like Putin, you don't like Putin. I think he's killed a lot of people to stay in power. It doesn't matter what I think about Putin. How do you end this war? How do you prevent a third invasion? I believe with all my heart and soul that if we had real security guarantees from the West to Ukraine, he wouldn't invade it. The Budapest Memorandum...
O'REILLY No, he tested.
GRAHAM He tested.
O'REILLY He absolutely tested.
GRAHAM And we had no infrastructure to require people to come to aid.
O'REILLY Absolutely tested.
GRAHAM And he'll do it again. So the Budapest Memorandum was an agreement to help Ukraine, but it wasn't binding. Obama, Biden, Clinton, nobody has ever given security guarantees to Ukraine like we have to NATO. So here's what I'm asking President Trump to entertain. Let Putin know that if you do this again, you're going to be running into a bigger crowd, not just Ukraine, that the Europeans will have small ground troops as tripwires. And we will have a guarantee to Ukraine, if there's another invasion, we'll be a backstop. We'll provide air support and command and control to defend you if there is a third invasion. I think that's enough to deter that invasion. I don't mind if he does business with Putin, because that's a security guarantee of its own. If you do business with somebody, you're less likely to go to war. The other thing I want to see happen is a ten-year commitment to the Ukrainian military from us, that we will sell them our high-end weapons through Europe, and they will be strong. And that's another form of deterrence.
O'REILLY Trump's been resistant to that.
GRAHAM He hasn't been resistant to selling weapons. He's been resistant to a long-term commitment.
O'REILLY The big weapons, though. He doesn't want to sell them.
GRAHAM Well, yeah, we've given them the F-16s.
O'REILLY Well, we're doing the circuit thing. We're selling them to Poland, and then Poland's selling them.
GRAHAM Yeah, but they're getting there. But I guess, how do you end the war? The Donbas is going to have to, there's going to be a trade there. There's just no way to evict all the Russians. What does Zelensky need to sell his people on giving up territory? That I've got a deal we've never had as a country. We're going to be standing as an independent sovereign Ukraine. I want China to look at it and say, you know, maybe it wasn't worth it for Putin after all, because I worry about Taiwan. If you sell out Ukraine, there goes Taiwan.
O'REILLY Sure.
GRAHAM This is how the world's connected. So I'm going to, I've been very supportive. I got a bill with 85 co-sponsors that will allow Trump to put tariffs on any country that buys Russian oil that doesn't help Ukraine. That's what he did to India. India, now, is buying less Russian oil.
O'REILLY They folded.
GRAHAM So, I got to bill to do that. But I am realistic. I'm trying to find a solution to end this war so we won't have a third invasion.
O'REILLY Well, Ukraine's going to have to give up some territory, but Putin's not going to do anything until the Iranian thing is cleared up.
GRAHAM A hundred percent.
O'REILLY Right. He's not gonna do a thing.
GRAHAM Why would he?
O'REILLY Now, pivot to China.
GRAHAM And let's say we get Iran bad, we'll never get a good deal in Ukraine. If we hit it right...
O'REILLY But it's getting worse for the Chinese. The Chinese will be more bellicose. I was in Beijing in May, privately invited. I addressed the Politburo there. You didn't know that.
GRAHAM I didn't. I haven't been invited.
O'REILLY Right. I'm one of the few.
GRAHAM Well, good for you.
O'REILLY Only journalist in history...
GRAHAM Good for you. I am glad you went.
O'REILLY The only journalist in the history who has received that invitation because they watch me on YouTube, where they're watching you right now.
GRAHAM They watch everything we say.
O'REILLY That's right. The Taiwan thing can be worked out, and it's a wording situation. But what China is doing is what Putin is doing. They're just watching to see. That's why Germany drives me crazy, and Luxembourg drives me nuts because they're all watching to see the weakness. Where is the weakness? And the weakness is in Europe. That's where it is. Not Trump. You're right. They fear Trump. Okay, but Trump was caught by surprise that NATO wouldn't help. Look, if Tony Blair was the PM, you would have had 18 ships in there.
GRAHAM Yeah, he literally said that.
O'REILLY Right, and that would have happened.
GRAHAM That shows you how Europe is strained.
O'REILLY But with these guys they have now, and you can't control that.
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GRAHAM Can I tell you what I think China's watching, and this is why everything does matter. China was impressed by Venezuela. China buys cheap oil from Venezuela.
O'REILLY Yeah, and now they don't.
GRAHAM Iran, right? Now, they don't. 31% of the known oil reserves are in Venezuela and Iran. They buy Iranian oil at cheap discounts. They buy Venezuela at cheap discounts.
O'REILLY Right.
GRAHAM That's off the table in Venezuela. If we can get a new Iran working with us instead of against us, then that's a big blow to China.
O'REILLY Well, President Trump is... Gonna make China an oil deal.
GRAHAM Well, you know.
O'REILLY You wait and see.
GRAHAM The thing that people are a little surprised, I'm okay for you going to Beijing.
O'REILLY Oh, yeah.
GRAHAM I'm okay.
O'REILLY You have to.
GRAHAM I'm okay to do business with Russia, Putin's Russia, if it advances our interests.
O'REILLY Yeah, but he's a psychopath now.
GRAHAM Yeah, but...
O'REILLY He's Hitler, like Stalin. It's who he is.
GRAHAM Nobody can accuse me of being light on Putin. But we did deal with Joe Stalin to beat the Germans. So the point is, how do you get Russia out of the invading business? Security guarantees that make it not worth their time. Ukrainian military.
O'REILLY He likes it.
GRAHAM Well, let me tell you.
O'REILLY He's got a million casualties.
GRAHAM Let's just say this, my friend, that a third invasion would be a hard sell to the Russian people. He's one bullet away. Nobody loses an election in Russia, but every family's got somebody who's died. Eventually, those numbers add up. And all I can say is that we've got a chance, if we get Iran right, to get a better deal in Russia. If we get Iran right, we'll have more influence over China because they will respect us.
O'REILLY No doubt about it.
GRAHAM Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, all were signals.
O'REILLY Right. Now, the opposing party, the Democratic Party, hasn't really come out against the Iran action.
GRAHAM No, they haven't.
O'REILLY No, they're just kind of floating. But in my opinion, and you correct me if I'm wrong, because you have much more access than I did to the Biden administration. Joe Biden hurt this country enormously by sitting it out. What he did was he just sat it out, and he allowed all the bad situations to get worse. Okay, so when he had the intel coming in every morning. Number one, I don't even believe he read it, okay? Maybe Jill did, I think he did, all right? And number two-.
GRAHAM If he read, he sure didn't understand it.
O'REILLY Right, all the countries in the world go, the United States is just gonna sit there. And this was after Afghanistan, which was so-
GRAHAM That's what started it all.
O'REILLY That's right.
GRAHAM Now, there would be no invasion, there would be no October 7th, there'd be no invasions of Russia by Ukraine again, I think, without Afghanistan.
O'REILLY Because the weakness then, was exposed. Now, you would think that the Democratic Party, whatever that is now, I don't even know who the leader, who's the leader of the Democratic Party? Who?
GRAHAM You know, I don't know if it's Newsom, AOC. I don't know who's going to be the nominee, but here's what Newsom said, and I've known Gavin. He said that Israel was an apartheid state. That tells you how desperate you have to be and how anti-Israel you have to be to be the nominee for the Democratic Party. He accused Israel of being an apartheid nation like South Africa.
O'REILLY Well, that whole platform is controlled by the radical left because that's where the money is.
GRAHAM But he bought into it. Well, he had to say it, he thought. I don't know if he means it or not, but when he said it, it surprised me.
O'REILLY I don't know, he's got trouble with senators. Oh, he can't be doing Israel. He can't clean up San Francisco.
GRAHAM Well, our party can't get that way, my party. I, we can't let it get to be so bad in a way that you have to embrace things that are just inherently wrong. There's an element of our party that, my party, that doesn't want any involvement, no matter how common sense. I mean, if Trump hadn't acted, they'd had 10 nuclear weapons, and that's just, to me, a fact. So these people who are ideologically driven, that they ignore facts or dangers, that's true whether you're right or left. If you get so extreme in your thinking, facts can't change your mind. You're in the wrong business.
O'REILLY But we have a country that lives now in an age of social media, where people go in there, and a lot of them believe what they are reading or hearing.
GRAHAM I don't know if you could have done World War II in today's environment because by the time I get home, by the time I leave here, there'd be 20 stories on the internet, Lindsey Graham wants 82nd Airborne to go in. It's just constant. And I just try to shut it out and focus on the facts as I know it and get an outcome I believe in. But social media, one thing I want to do politically beyond foreign policy is if your daughter is, you know, goaded into suicide or weight loss or your kids are being preyed on by sexual predators and websites, you can't bring a legal action. Section 230 under our law prevents you from bringing a lawsuit against a website or social media company for the damage they may have done to your family. That was to make sure the internet would get started. Well, that's started. I want to eliminate Section 230 protection so that you can go after social media companies that are terrorizing your family.
O'REILLY They're not going to do that?
GRAHAM No, we've got to fight. We'll come back and do the show about my bill to sunset. In two years, I want Section 230 to be replaced by some vehicle to give people a save...
O'REILLY I can't see one Democrat supporting that.
GRAHAM I've got Durbin. He's on board.
O'REILLY He's going to be gone.
GRAHAM Well, but I've other Democrats because they have grandchildren too. This is the one issue, above all issues, that sort of unites people. If you're a parent out there raising kids, yeah, so...
O'REILLY Let's see it.
GRAHAM I want to give you some hope there's some issues that we can work out. But the bottom line here is, this is a time of testing. Afghanistan unleashed the bad guys in a way we hadn't seen in a long time. Trump is reversing that trend. But this can all fall apart and go the other way if we don't get Iran right. If Iran doesn't turn out the way I think it can, we can actually go backwards.
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O'REILLY Now, here's a provocative question. You've been in Congress for more than 30 years as a rep and a senator. I've been in journalism 50 years plus. I have seen, and I could be wrong because I don't sit there like you do, a deterioration, generally speaking, of intellect. I'm seeing really dumb people, really dumb people, people who don't know history. They don't really understand that if you don't punish criminals, then the criminals will commit more crimes. These are just basic things that in our country were givens for hundreds of years. And these people like Ocasio-Cortez, who went to Boston U, so did I. And her district is a... She doesn't know anything. And this woman is gonna be the next, she'll beat Schumer. She'll beat him. Okay, Schumer's done. And when you listen to her, and she doesn't do interviews like this, she would never sit with me in a million years.
GRAHAM Does she write books?
O'REILLY She doesn't know anything!
GRAHAM Well...
O'REILLY Have you seen that across the board?
GRAHAM Here's what I've seen. When I first started this business, you got rewarded for problem-solving. You know, sort of knowing what you're talking about. All the energy now is too loud, not knowledgeable, just loud.
O'REILLY Right. Partisan.
GRAHAM Fetterman. He's doing what people used to do without even being noticed.
O'REILLY He's the only one.
GRAHAM So I tried to help Biden deal with Saudi, you know, Israel. I was in the gang of eight for immigration. I've done some things that our base doesn't like because somebody's got to solve these problems. Fetterman is trying to solve problems. Question, will he make it or not? If you're running in a primary right now, your goal is to get as many eyeballs as you can. And how do you get eyeballs in this world? Be provocative. Provocative has replaced intellect. Proactive has replaced problem-solving. And what I want to do is to say, no, you don't have to be provocative to win. You actually can go to the Mideast enough. My knock is, why are you over there? We need you here. Why aren't you supporting them over there when we're paying more gas prices here? And I say, the reason I go over there is I don't want another 9-11. The last time we took our eye off the ball over there, they killed 3,000 Americans. And I end every conversation with this thought. Do you think if the Ayatollah had a nuclear weapon, he'd use it? Most people say yes. Well, let's make sure he doesn't do it. And how do you do that sitting over here? I make an argument for smart intervention.
O'REILLY Well, you're a guy who, you're a conservative Republican, but you're at least open to hearing the other point of view, and you have a frame of reference.
GRAHAM Well, I have a frame of reference, which is history. And it goes back to what you just said. Why did people...It's almost as if World War II never happened.
O'REILLY Sure.
GRAHAM If you stop people out on the streets...
O'REILLY They don't know.
GRAHAM And you ask them, name the Axis powers, they have no idea what you're talking about. In a country who lets that happen, you'll wake up one day and wonder, what happened? Schooling. All I can say is the deterioration of curiosity, willingness to ask questions, and try to solve them. The ability to solve a problem is getting harder because the reward is less.
O'REILLY Okay, we're gonna break away from the senator for a moment. Now, you Premium Members and Concierge Members are gonna get another six minutes with Senator Graham. Only you see this. This is gonna be very secret stuff, all right? And that will-
GRAHAM It's the plan to win the war.
O'REILLY That will start momentarily.
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